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Tuesday, April 7. 2009
Best of Swiss Web: sexist!
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While I would even go as far to say that this form of separation is unnecessary in other places/contexts too, this seems like a particularly negative instance of the problem. I fully agree with your post, and I hope that the organisers reconsider for next year.
Of course you fully agree :) You have helped shaped my opinions on this matter in many ways... smooooch
Yes! You've got it spot-on! These award categories (and worse, like women-only funding programmes) are a symptom of the problem, not part of the solution.
I've been upset by these sort of things for years, but I've largely given up campaigning against them because of the abuse I get when I do - abuse that I get mainly because I'm male (even though that isn't obvious from the name I use, it's pretty easy to tell now that photos are more common), as far as I can tell. While marketing may vary, what's good behaviour towards others doesn't depend on gender or anything else except maybe culture.
I've been upset by these sort of things for years, but I've largely given up campaigning against them because of the abuse I get when I do - abuse that I get mainly because I'm male (even though that isn't obvious from the name I use, it's pretty easy to tell now that photos are more common), as far as I can tell. While marketing may vary, what's good behaviour towards others doesn't depend on gender or anything else except maybe culture.
I agree with you that this isn't actually a gender problem. I co-lead a panel at Google about getting more Women involved in GSOC with Leslie & Angie from Drupal and after about 5 minutes it became apparently that what we were talking about was how to make Open Source more accessible to (without sounding like an ubuntu fan) humans, rather than specifically women...
Great post Penny. Thoughtful and worthy of discussion. A few thoughts occur:
Being an older generation of feminist (and possibly my age meaning I now experience, in my life and career, more open sexism than when I was younger- it's amazing how it ratchets up as one's youthful sexay-ness diminishes) my general tendency is to support anything that helps women, brings women to the fore, encourages women. So in general I am for, for example, funding programmes, bursaries, prizes, aimed at encouraging women in a male-dominated industry like IT.
Something about what you've described makes me squirm though. There does seem to be a patronising edge to it, some kind of diminishment going on. As you say, at least the prize was purple, not pink. But what's with the "dispatched by pretty girls" thing? That would piss me off when juxtaposed with a women-only award like that. Tokenism much? Having your cake and eating it, guys?
Another thought: a bit of a challenge to this: "Wrong is just endlessly bitching about, and consequently amplifying, the problem." I don't think bitching about a real problem exacerbates the problem. Women should keep bitching until there is no more reason to bitch! I guess you probably didn't mean it the way I'm taking it, but I think it's right and natural to be angry at injustice, and women expressing such anger is often dismissed as "bitching" - on with the bitching I say!
The trouble is of course, when any movement reaches the point where tokenistic attempts to solve the problem are made like the one you describe, it becomes difficult to know exactly what to bitch about and how. I personally wouldn't stand up against an award like that because I'm sure it's been good for the women involved (I probably wouldn't actively support it either); I would continue to encourage the kinds of things you very rightly mention at the end of your blog post; and I would write to the conference organisers and point out that "pretty girls giving awards" is an outdated, sexist, objectifying practice that sends the wrong message to women in the community about how they are perceived as women, regardless of any tokenistic awards made, and ask that they cease and desist next year.
But I wasn't there, so it ain't my battle, and I still fully 100% support you raising all the issues you have here, and also in disagreeing with me, and fighting the good fight in your own brilliant way :-)
Enjoying following you on Twitter by the way- good, dry, kiwi, geekgrrl humour!
Being an older generation of feminist (and possibly my age meaning I now experience, in my life and career, more open sexism than when I was younger- it's amazing how it ratchets up as one's youthful sexay-ness diminishes) my general tendency is to support anything that helps women, brings women to the fore, encourages women. So in general I am for, for example, funding programmes, bursaries, prizes, aimed at encouraging women in a male-dominated industry like IT.
Something about what you've described makes me squirm though. There does seem to be a patronising edge to it, some kind of diminishment going on. As you say, at least the prize was purple, not pink. But what's with the "dispatched by pretty girls" thing? That would piss me off when juxtaposed with a women-only award like that. Tokenism much? Having your cake and eating it, guys?
Another thought: a bit of a challenge to this: "Wrong is just endlessly bitching about, and consequently amplifying, the problem." I don't think bitching about a real problem exacerbates the problem. Women should keep bitching until there is no more reason to bitch! I guess you probably didn't mean it the way I'm taking it, but I think it's right and natural to be angry at injustice, and women expressing such anger is often dismissed as "bitching" - on with the bitching I say!
The trouble is of course, when any movement reaches the point where tokenistic attempts to solve the problem are made like the one you describe, it becomes difficult to know exactly what to bitch about and how. I personally wouldn't stand up against an award like that because I'm sure it's been good for the women involved (I probably wouldn't actively support it either); I would continue to encourage the kinds of things you very rightly mention at the end of your blog post; and I would write to the conference organisers and point out that "pretty girls giving awards" is an outdated, sexist, objectifying practice that sends the wrong message to women in the community about how they are perceived as women, regardless of any tokenistic awards made, and ask that they cease and desist next year.
But I wasn't there, so it ain't my battle, and I still fully 100% support you raising all the issues you have here, and also in disagreeing with me, and fighting the good fight in your own brilliant way :-)
Enjoying following you on Twitter by the way- good, dry, kiwi, geekgrrl humour!
Sarah thanks very much for writing such a thoughtful response.
My own opinions on this subject have changed a great deal over the last 5 years, and I feel a great deal of discomfort about that - sometimes I feel as though I'm betraying my side by feeling this way. 5 years ago, or even 2 maybe, I would have defaulted to being on the side of anything that promotes female involvement in this industry, but now I guess I think it's important to be more careful about the way you do it. I think that polarising people is unhelpful. I am sure that the BOSW people had their hearts in the right place, but the fact is that every woman I've talked to who was at the event (none of whom were on the winning panel or jury btw) felt pissed off about it! Both of the other women there from my company left the room and went to smoke during the award. The men I've talked to about this have been more accepting of it than the women! Is this because they actually think women need their own category? Eh, I dunno...
About the bitching - I guess I feel as though there's a good point to venting and it is important, but it doesn't actually solve anything. In fact, in my experience it just spreads the negativity around. I'm not talking about bitching as in - going to talk to your boss because your male colleague was sexist towards you. Imagine going to a meetup of a women's IT group (I won't name it although I guess it would be pretty obvious) at a conference, 1 hour slot. The entire slot was taken up by going around the room and introducing ourselves, because every single person wanted to tell a horror story. It just made me want to bang my head against a wall. YES! I know there is a problem, and I don't want to use up all my energy (which at the end of a busy week, which is comprised of working fulltime, working on open source, all the other shit I do, isn't that much) talking about how crap things are. FFS! Let's focus on what we can actually do about it.
Sorry that got kind of ranty :)) it frustrates me. I am a big believer in picking battles.
I very much value your input, including the challenges in it :)
My own opinions on this subject have changed a great deal over the last 5 years, and I feel a great deal of discomfort about that - sometimes I feel as though I'm betraying my side by feeling this way. 5 years ago, or even 2 maybe, I would have defaulted to being on the side of anything that promotes female involvement in this industry, but now I guess I think it's important to be more careful about the way you do it. I think that polarising people is unhelpful. I am sure that the BOSW people had their hearts in the right place, but the fact is that every woman I've talked to who was at the event (none of whom were on the winning panel or jury btw) felt pissed off about it! Both of the other women there from my company left the room and went to smoke during the award. The men I've talked to about this have been more accepting of it than the women! Is this because they actually think women need their own category? Eh, I dunno...
About the bitching - I guess I feel as though there's a good point to venting and it is important, but it doesn't actually solve anything. In fact, in my experience it just spreads the negativity around. I'm not talking about bitching as in - going to talk to your boss because your male colleague was sexist towards you. Imagine going to a meetup of a women's IT group (I won't name it although I guess it would be pretty obvious) at a conference, 1 hour slot. The entire slot was taken up by going around the room and introducing ourselves, because every single person wanted to tell a horror story. It just made me want to bang my head against a wall. YES! I know there is a problem, and I don't want to use up all my energy (which at the end of a busy week, which is comprised of working fulltime, working on open source, all the other shit I do, isn't that much) talking about how crap things are. FFS! Let's focus on what we can actually do about it.
Sorry that got kind of ranty :)) it frustrates me. I am a big believer in picking battles.
I very much value your input, including the challenges in it :)
Of course- now I remember the earlier posts of yours which drew me to follow your blog, which should have alerted me more to your point of view in this one.
I totally understand your frustration with the sense of talking and talking about problems and not doing anything about them. And badly organised workshops where they spend the whole time introducing irritate me as well- I find a lot can be done by restricting every introduction to a few minutes: it's amazing what concentrating people's minds can do- they tend to still get the important stuff out if forewarned.
I suppose I was mainly reacting to how a n00bie woman who needs to hear others' stories and who needs to have a good sympathetic bitch because she's been feeling like it's all her individual problem, might react to someone like you (who may seem like a super-successful goddess in her eyes) telling her not to bitch!
However, I ain't gonna tell you to stop saying it- sometimes a bit of tough love is needed. I've met some awesome women in tech who, I suspect, are introverts, left-brain oriented or whatever, and sometimes verging on Asperger's, who don't personally need the touchy-feely-caring-sharing stuff so much- more power to them! I'm a touchy-feely (although getting a lot less so as I get older- losing the energy for it) so I tend to jump to understanding those needs.
Anyway, am sorting out my new working-from-home office, lit by the Full Moon outside my window, gonna get back to it, enjoyed chatting about all this.
I totally understand your frustration with the sense of talking and talking about problems and not doing anything about them. And badly organised workshops where they spend the whole time introducing irritate me as well- I find a lot can be done by restricting every introduction to a few minutes: it's amazing what concentrating people's minds can do- they tend to still get the important stuff out if forewarned.
I suppose I was mainly reacting to how a n00bie woman who needs to hear others' stories and who needs to have a good sympathetic bitch because she's been feeling like it's all her individual problem, might react to someone like you (who may seem like a super-successful goddess in her eyes) telling her not to bitch!
However, I ain't gonna tell you to stop saying it- sometimes a bit of tough love is needed. I've met some awesome women in tech who, I suspect, are introverts, left-brain oriented or whatever, and sometimes verging on Asperger's, who don't personally need the touchy-feely-caring-sharing stuff so much- more power to them! I'm a touchy-feely (although getting a lot less so as I get older- losing the energy for it) so I tend to jump to understanding those needs.
Anyway, am sorting out my new working-from-home office, lit by the Full Moon outside my window, gonna get back to it, enjoyed chatting about all this.
Hi Penny! Very interesting discussion here. I agree with everything you're saying, especially about being careful how the problems are being addressed.
In my experience, whenever a minority group feels they are being discriminated against, they tend to adopt the victim frame of mind, and interpret people's actions through that frame of mind. It usually makes things worse because, if you play a victim role, you usually stay a victim, even when the initial annoyances have gone.
A few well-placed words or questions can make a huge difference in shaping people's way of thinking. For example, asking the organisers why they chose a purple baywatch buoy as a prize! However, we need to be realistic: we may be able to influence a few people, but we can't change an entire culture through ranting.
There are, however, examples in history of minority groups that were successful in changing the wider culture in which they lived. They used specific strategies which were (for the most part) non-confrontational, but always well-planned and organised. In my opinion it is worth studying these cases to better understand what we can actually do to address these gender-related issues effectively instead of just shooting random shots in the wrong directions.
In my experience, whenever a minority group feels they are being discriminated against, they tend to adopt the victim frame of mind, and interpret people's actions through that frame of mind. It usually makes things worse because, if you play a victim role, you usually stay a victim, even when the initial annoyances have gone.
A few well-placed words or questions can make a huge difference in shaping people's way of thinking. For example, asking the organisers why they chose a purple baywatch buoy as a prize! However, we need to be realistic: we may be able to influence a few people, but we can't change an entire culture through ranting.
There are, however, examples in history of minority groups that were successful in changing the wider culture in which they lived. They used specific strategies which were (for the most part) non-confrontational, but always well-planned and organised. In my opinion it is worth studying these cases to better understand what we can actually do to address these gender-related issues effectively instead of just shooting random shots in the wrong directions.
I have similar feelings but also an opposite.
I see the award for female successes in a male dominated career as good thing from a tree falling in the woods angle.
eg. If you have a bucket of 90 lemons and 10 limes and they are all equal you are more likely to throw a lemon. For the assuming people out there they might not believe that the limes were thrown at all because they either forgot or didn't see it. By highlighting the farthest lime thrown you are sure to remember that they were thrown and in the future assume they are thrown even if they don't see it.
What I don't like are organisations whose sole purpose is to highlight any female successes, even in female dominated areas. And especially if there aren't any orgs pushing male achievements in the same field. (I would also object to the reverse of this.) I like the idea of either one for each gender or 1+ for both.
Is that particularly messed up in anyone else's eyes?
I see the award for female successes in a male dominated career as good thing from a tree falling in the woods angle.
eg. If you have a bucket of 90 lemons and 10 limes and they are all equal you are more likely to throw a lemon. For the assuming people out there they might not believe that the limes were thrown at all because they either forgot or didn't see it. By highlighting the farthest lime thrown you are sure to remember that they were thrown and in the future assume they are thrown even if they don't see it.
What I don't like are organisations whose sole purpose is to highlight any female successes, even in female dominated areas. And especially if there aren't any orgs pushing male achievements in the same field. (I would also object to the reverse of this.) I like the idea of either one for each gender or 1+ for both.
Is that particularly messed up in anyone else's eyes?
Nice analogy. And in general I agree with you. But I think there's a difference between highlighting the farthest thrown lime, (which I would approximate more towards Pia's talk), than saying that limes by definition cannot be thrown as far, therefore there should be a special lime award.
I guess in this case I just think it causes more damage than it helps.
I guess in this case I just think it causes more damage than it helps.
I support Sarah's comment, and as I mentioned in an e-mail to you, the positive discrimination, when done in a proper way, is a good thing. Not a good thing when it actually polarises even more the minorities and the majorities in the group, and when pointing the finger to the minorities in a humiliating way.
I think our society (and media on the first place), as so stereotyped as of the vision of a successful woman, that everyone that goes beyond the stereotype (small, round, smart, geeky, comfortable-with-technology, other-colour-than-blond, younger, older, etc. female) just is impossible to exist.
The idea of creating a women only space in a male dominated field should itself 1) be a recognition of the problem in its depth, and 2) propose a solution to it. If does not do these two things, than it obviously is no right.
For example, in FOSS projects, there are often women who gather to create a women only place. It is made to support, to encourage gender based discussion, to create a critical mass and opinion for the general discussion. And this is not taken as something humiliating for women. On the contrary, it is taken to support the minority group in the conversation.
Obviously, in the case of this conference, it was done in a wrong way so that women feel even more excluded and limited to their 'women-only' space. This is a wrong thing to do, and it discourages more than everything else women's participation.
So, my personal opinion is that the idea itself is a good one, but its implementation should be done delicately, in a gender neutral way.
***
As for the equality, I don't beleive in it. We are not equal and we will never be. And we should not be. We are not equal as two women, nor as two men.
Everyone is unique and has some things better than others, and some things worse. Some are better positioned in life, and some are better well-off. Some have faster internet connection. Some have had a computer at an earlier age. Some have been encouraged to experiment with technologies more than others. Some have more home obligations at home, and less free time. Some need to work harder to get 'equal' pay.
The point is not to be equal, because we are not. We come out with stereotyped minds, with education gap, better or worse equipped. The idea is to manage to put forward some who are as good DESPITE of the stereotypes.
--Sorry for the long post. Btw, I like very much your blog and will rss it from my website, if you don't mind.
I think our society (and media on the first place), as so stereotyped as of the vision of a successful woman, that everyone that goes beyond the stereotype (small, round, smart, geeky, comfortable-with-technology, other-colour-than-blond, younger, older, etc. female) just is impossible to exist.
The idea of creating a women only space in a male dominated field should itself 1) be a recognition of the problem in its depth, and 2) propose a solution to it. If does not do these two things, than it obviously is no right.
For example, in FOSS projects, there are often women who gather to create a women only place. It is made to support, to encourage gender based discussion, to create a critical mass and opinion for the general discussion. And this is not taken as something humiliating for women. On the contrary, it is taken to support the minority group in the conversation.
Obviously, in the case of this conference, it was done in a wrong way so that women feel even more excluded and limited to their 'women-only' space. This is a wrong thing to do, and it discourages more than everything else women's participation.
So, my personal opinion is that the idea itself is a good one, but its implementation should be done delicately, in a gender neutral way.
***
As for the equality, I don't beleive in it. We are not equal and we will never be. And we should not be. We are not equal as two women, nor as two men.
Everyone is unique and has some things better than others, and some things worse. Some are better positioned in life, and some are better well-off. Some have faster internet connection. Some have had a computer at an earlier age. Some have been encouraged to experiment with technologies more than others. Some have more home obligations at home, and less free time. Some need to work harder to get 'equal' pay.
The point is not to be equal, because we are not. We come out with stereotyped minds, with education gap, better or worse equipped. The idea is to manage to put forward some who are as good DESPITE of the stereotypes.
--Sorry for the long post. Btw, I like very much your blog and will rss it from my website, if you don't mind.
"positive discrimination, when done in a proper way, is a good thing." - There is no such thing as "positive discrimination". That's just a politically-correct name for blunt ignorant discrimination against some majority attribute, so can never be a good thing. Worse still, it's often discrimination against some attribute which is correlated but not actually the cause.
I suspect there could be some sort of fair balancing discrimination which has an effect that deminishes to zero as the balance approaches normal, but I've seen no-one use such things in practice.
"As for the equality, I don't beleive in it. We are not equal and we will never be." - Equality in this sense does not mean uniformity. It means possessing the same rights and responsibilities, opportunities and liabilities. We are not uniform, but we should have equality.
I suspect there could be some sort of fair balancing discrimination which has an effect that deminishes to zero as the balance approaches normal, but I've seen no-one use such things in practice.
"As for the equality, I don't beleive in it. We are not equal and we will never be." - Equality in this sense does not mean uniformity. It means possessing the same rights and responsibilities, opportunities and liabilities. We are not uniform, but we should have equality.
I also don't like the term 'positive discrimination' but I haven't found a good analogue in English yet, which should address activities done to bring in front the good actions of minority groups.
And for the equality, I would better use a term which in my opinion is better suited: in French is used équité, équitable (as a synonym of fairness). But not being a native English speaker, I am not even sure that this makes sense.
And for the equality, I would better use a term which in my opinion is better suited: in French is used équité, équitable (as a synonym of fairness). But not being a native English speaker, I am not even sure that this makes sense.
This might be a good one :-)
Def.: A policy or a program that seeks to redress past discrimination through active measures to ensure equal opportunity, as in education and employment.
Def.: A policy or a program that seeks to redress past discrimination through active measures to ensure equal opportunity, as in education and employment.
Sorry, I misworded. MJ phrased what I believe about uniformity vs equality totally 100% perfectly.
I guess I would like to differentiate between bottom up groups created by the minority out of need, (like linuxchix, debian women etc) as "good", vs top down dictated approaches by 'authority' (like this award) as "bad".
About positive discrimination - I don't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't have the effect of discriminating against the other group, in which case it becomes problematic and you have to look at whether the good it does to the minority is worth the bad it does to the majority, and those questions get into grey area, case by case basis.
I'm very happy in general with the thoughtful conversation that is happening here, and have no problems with anyone syndicating anything in any places :)
I guess I would like to differentiate between bottom up groups created by the minority out of need, (like linuxchix, debian women etc) as "good", vs top down dictated approaches by 'authority' (like this award) as "bad".
About positive discrimination - I don't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't have the effect of discriminating against the other group, in which case it becomes problematic and you have to look at whether the good it does to the minority is worth the bad it does to the majority, and those questions get into grey area, case by case basis.
I'm very happy in general with the thoughtful conversation that is happening here, and have no problems with anyone syndicating anything in any places :)
I tend to agree with you Penny (and others) that such top down initiatives like this one are not only unsuccessful, but are also problematic.
The problem I see with this event is that it was promoting a stereotypic underestimation for women in general (with the pretty women giving awards, etc.), while they wanted to show off that they care about "bridging the gap" by organising this women-only award event. In this, they actually mocked the female participants. Therefore, even if they had good intentions, they did more harm than fixed anything.
Maybe it would be good that several of the female participants gather and write down a letter to the organisers, by letting them know your feelings, and by explaining them where they made mistakes. Maybe they will make more efforts next time to do it in a better way. Or maybe they will simply cancel it, which will probably be better than doing more trouble.
The discussion is definitely very interesting! Bravo for raising the issue.
The problem I see with this event is that it was promoting a stereotypic underestimation for women in general (with the pretty women giving awards, etc.), while they wanted to show off that they care about "bridging the gap" by organising this women-only award event. In this, they actually mocked the female participants. Therefore, even if they had good intentions, they did more harm than fixed anything.
Maybe it would be good that several of the female participants gather and write down a letter to the organisers, by letting them know your feelings, and by explaining them where they made mistakes. Maybe they will make more efforts next time to do it in a better way. Or maybe they will simply cancel it, which will probably be better than doing more trouble.
The discussion is definitely very interesting! Bravo for raising the issue.
Yes, I hope that it may happen that someone will communicate with the organisers. Others have blogged about their frustrations with this too (in German: http://blog.namics.com/2009/04/women_wired_in.html) and I hope we can collaborate on this.
FWIW, I'm sure the intentions were in the right place and I'm sure it was women who organised the award. At least the presenter of it and the entire judging panel for it were all women, so I'm sure it was done with the best intentions.
I've been very happy with the level of discussion both here and in other places. No trolling or flaming at all, which has been fantastic.
FWIW, I'm sure the intentions were in the right place and I'm sure it was women who organised the award. At least the presenter of it and the entire judging panel for it were all women, so I'm sure it was done with the best intentions.
I've been very happy with the level of discussion both here and in other places. No trolling or flaming at all, which has been fantastic.
As a much older woman who has worked in an academic field where there were very few women when I started but plenty now, I find this discussion very interesting. My feeling both then and now would be that this kind of award, presented in the way it was, is patronising and unhelpful. There have been and still are forms of affirmative action to assist women in male dominated fields - I myself benefited from a research position set up partly to balance out men-only positions. But that's quite different. I do agree with Penny that the sight of strong, successful women role models can be very powerful for young women seeking to enter a male dominated profession. I also believe that encouragement and mentoring from successful women and encouragement and support from men are necessary if women are to make progress in any field.
Yes, mentoring is definitely helpful. And support from men as well, although it's hard to strike the balance there and have it not be too heavy handed. A lot of women will be instinctively defensive at too many men helping, or see it as patronising.
By the way I am sure that a huge part of my own stubbornness about getting in to this male dominated field has been due to a strong positive role model in my MOTHER, as one of the first women in her field (if not the first in NZ) :)
By the way I am sure that a huge part of my own stubbornness about getting in to this male dominated field has been due to a strong positive role model in my MOTHER, as one of the first women in her field (if not the first in NZ) :)
As men we can probably help the most by thinking more, being more critical of our ideologies and stereotypes, and challenging other people's thinking. It certainly doesn't need to be patronising or condescending. If only we were not so clumsy about expressing our good intentions ;)
And telling other men off when they misbehave. It's important that all the noise doesn't come from women only - men also have to show that it's not acceptable for them to witness.
That's what I meant by "Challenging other people's thinking". Not just men. Many women have an unhealthy opinion of themselves and/or of men, and tend to express it in inappropriate ways. It needs to be done in an encouraging way. Humour helps a lot too.
Perhaps it really comes down to treating other people with respect. And of course humour helps a lot. There will always be some nasty people, both male and female, and sometimes inappropriate behaviour on both sides can pointed out. Supporting colleagues, encouraging younger people, are things that help everyone, and both men and women can be good role models. But in a male dominated profession, men who recognise that there is a problem for women, and are sympathetic, can `help' in subtle ways, without having to resort to silly prizes and purple balloons.
Hi Penny,
I have summarised the discussion on this issue here: http://www.ludost.org/content/women-only-tech-award-sexist-thing . If you have any critics (wrong facts or anything that I said which disturbs you) please let me know and I will change.
Thanks again for rising the issue. It is a step forward into this endless debate :-)
I have summarised the discussion on this issue here: http://www.ludost.org/content/women-only-tech-award-sexist-thing . If you have any critics (wrong facts or anything that I said which disturbs you) please let me know and I will change.
Thanks again for rising the issue. It is a step forward into this endless debate :-)
Hi Penny,
Just thought I should point out that Switzerland is a odd place... Women in one of the cantons only got the vote in 1998.
Just thought I should point out that Switzerland is a odd place... Women in one of the cantons only got the vote in 1998.
The correct date is 1990 according to several documents I found. Still, that's appallingly late.
I think a number of things are relevant here - I.T. is not, in general, a gender-neutral field; nothing is because we bring our gender knowledge/assumptions with us. You only have to look at what tends to be privileged in gaming and how pornography kick-started global internet use....
If one of the issues at the awards was the lack of knowledge about what was said, inferring what went on by what was described in the blog showed some gender assumptions in action.
I would say tread carefully. It may be that the women getting the award had never participated before and this provided the means for them to do so.
Things are not equal and to assume that they are is a dream; women 'bitching' may be the same as men being 'assertive'. It's a matter of perception and interpretation. One of those words is certainly less negative and carries much less baggage than the other. Does bitching and men go together, do you think?
If one of the issues at the awards was the lack of knowledge about what was said, inferring what went on by what was described in the blog showed some gender assumptions in action.
I would say tread carefully. It may be that the women getting the award had never participated before and this provided the means for them to do so.
Things are not equal and to assume that they are is a dream; women 'bitching' may be the same as men being 'assertive'. It's a matter of perception and interpretation. One of those words is certainly less negative and carries much less baggage than the other. Does bitching and men go together, do you think?
I was at the event as me and Penny work for the same company. I think the main issue was the guy moderating the event. He was simply an old school "gentleman" aka chauvinist type guy. In his world he is being charming and entertaining by chatting with women and having his photo taken with lots of women. Things were made worse by the fact that the jury panel played along with all this crap.
As to having an award or not. I think the project team also won a bronze or silver award. However for these you do not get to go on stage. As a result nobody would have realized that this team was comprised of IIRC mostly women (but also a fair number of men .. seems like it was a really large development team). To me it was quite reassuring to see for my own eyes that such teams exist. Not because I doubted that its possible and feasible, but just to see that things are moving forward.
You know at so many conferences people make sexist analogies, but in pictures of pretty women (yet no men) into their talk slides. They fail to realize that stuff like this just ensures that women feel unwelcomed. Meaning that those that do stick around need to be so much more thick skinned. Its very exhausting to call out people on this, especially if you get the feeling that it doesn't really change anything.
So to me it was good to see this team existed, but given how horrible the actual presentation was handled, I would have rather spared myself the experience.
As to having an award or not. I think the project team also won a bronze or silver award. However for these you do not get to go on stage. As a result nobody would have realized that this team was comprised of IIRC mostly women (but also a fair number of men .. seems like it was a really large development team). To me it was quite reassuring to see for my own eyes that such teams exist. Not because I doubted that its possible and feasible, but just to see that things are moving forward.
You know at so many conferences people make sexist analogies, but in pictures of pretty women (yet no men) into their talk slides. They fail to realize that stuff like this just ensures that women feel unwelcomed. Meaning that those that do stick around need to be so much more thick skinned. Its very exhausting to call out people on this, especially if you get the feeling that it doesn't really change anything.
So to me it was good to see this team existed, but given how horrible the actual presentation was handled, I would have rather spared myself the experience.
Hello Penny, I am glad that there is a discussion about this (I have been at the event, too, but I just happened to read this now -- very late!), but I feel ashamed that something like this still happens (even though I know that this is just "normal"). In my opinion it happened because of several reasons: First reason: Switzerland is a development country regarding equality of men and women (I made my experiences as a German woman living in Switzerland and working in the IT industry since 1995 and being a mother since last year). The Swiss male and female mindset is just different... (Usually I was the only woman in the meetings and most men thought I was writing the protocol. Or: "Ich kenne niemand, der sein Kind fremdbetreuen lässt"). Second reason: The woman category was a marketing gag for the bosw-organizers. The whole prize is all about money-making... Third reason: Women are taking part in this, even though nowbody knows the criteria that would be applied to judge the projects (by the way: there were no criteria anounced for any category). Well after considering all this, I would say to discuss about this shitty event gag would honor the event too much. Back to Switzerland: After having concentrated on gender issues in my thesis at the Rhode Island School of Design, USA, I wanted to connect with other women working in gender studies in the academic field. At a conference specialized on that topic a few years ago only basic information was given. So I turned my back on those topics here in Switzerland. I am glad that I found this discussion here!
I just read this post on the use of the word "Offense" (and derivatives), and how it is unhelpful when describing interactions between people that result in one or more of the participants feeling "offended". I won't reiterate the post here, because it
Tracked: Aug 09, 08:55