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Saturday, September 26. 2009
Do I want to be a feminist anymore?
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I'd say that you shouldn't let the circumstance, that people promoting the same thing as you do make idiotic statements, hold you back. Be an example of the feminism you can be proud of, rather than letting such things divert you from your way.
If people promoting free software, acting like idiots, would have had that effect on me, I would have turned my back on free software long ago.
If people promoting free software, acting like idiots, would have had that effect on me, I would have turned my back on free software long ago.
I do agree with you, but I'm worried about the potential to alienate people.
If feminism has become something I don't like in general ("Radical feminism" as Erik put it), telling people I'm a feminist may cause them to take me less seriously because they're expecting the very sort of reaction that I'm complaining about here.
While I personally don't really care if people take me seriously or not, this does have the potential to harm the cause.
If feminism has become something I don't like in general ("Radical feminism" as Erik put it), telling people I'm a feminist may cause them to take me less seriously because they're expecting the very sort of reaction that I'm complaining about here.
While I personally don't really care if people take me seriously or not, this does have the potential to harm the cause.
[ Reposted (with permission) from an email ]
Well-put, Penny. I personally believe Feminism is a much simpler and
less controversial thing than most people make it out to be, and is a
subclass of simple Equality of all human beings (ie. Egalitarianism).
Therefore, I am a Feminist in my view since I believe that we are all
equal.
Radical Feminism, which is just "feminism" to most people in the US,
is something I don't like. Progress cannot be made if people alienate
their cause with their bad behavior. Intelligent discussion, as
you've done here, is all that's needed. Shuttleworth should apologize
for that comment, but I don't think I'll be boycotting the best Linux
distro ever because of it.
So, I think the best solution is to divorce yourself from the
"feminist" label, and just become an Egalitarian. Rather than pushing
from one side, push from all sides for equality regardless of race,
gender, religion, etc. etc.
For the record, I fight hard to make sure that I use "he/she"s
properly in my writing, as I agree that it's pretty insensitive not
to. Though, I get annoyed when I see "she" substituted for "he" in
literature as well, as both sexes should be represented. I don't like
the compromises like "hir" etc. that I've seen over the years. It's
not that hard to use phrases like "one's own" instead of "his own"
Well-put, Penny. I personally believe Feminism is a much simpler and
less controversial thing than most people make it out to be, and is a
subclass of simple Equality of all human beings (ie. Egalitarianism).
Therefore, I am a Feminist in my view since I believe that we are all
equal.
Radical Feminism, which is just "feminism" to most people in the US,
is something I don't like. Progress cannot be made if people alienate
their cause with their bad behavior. Intelligent discussion, as
you've done here, is all that's needed. Shuttleworth should apologize
for that comment, but I don't think I'll be boycotting the best Linux
distro ever because of it.
So, I think the best solution is to divorce yourself from the
"feminist" label, and just become an Egalitarian. Rather than pushing
from one side, push from all sides for equality regardless of race,
gender, religion, etc. etc.
For the record, I fight hard to make sure that I use "he/she"s
properly in my writing, as I agree that it's pretty insensitive not
to. Though, I get annoyed when I see "she" substituted for "he" in
literature as well, as both sexes should be represented. I don't like
the compromises like "hir" etc. that I've seen over the years. It's
not that hard to use phrases like "one's own" instead of "his own"
To be honest, it drives me crazy when I see "she" used instead of "they" or "The teacher" or whatever, as well.
I kind of fail to see how that's supposed to be better than using "he".
Egalitarianism is a good approach although, and it covers other minorities as well. Although of course I am best equipped to evaluate the discrimination I have felt against me. Actually writing that makes me wonder why... I see all the time comments about men not being able to understand the female view point because they're priviledged, and I'm sure I've used the words "priviledged white male programmer syndrome" myself, but changed to another context, does that mean that I can't emphathise with the victims of racism? You don't generally see white people being told to shut up and not comment because they're white and couldn't possibly understand, at least nowdays ("why say we, white girl" comes to mind as a historic example)
I kind of fail to see how that's supposed to be better than using "he".
Egalitarianism is a good approach although, and it covers other minorities as well. Although of course I am best equipped to evaluate the discrimination I have felt against me. Actually writing that makes me wonder why... I see all the time comments about men not being able to understand the female view point because they're priviledged, and I'm sure I've used the words "priviledged white male programmer syndrome" myself, but changed to another context, does that mean that I can't emphathise with the victims of racism? You don't generally see white people being told to shut up and not comment because they're white and couldn't possibly understand, at least nowdays ("why say we, white girl" comes to mind as a historic example)
"They" when referring to a singular subject‽‽‽‽
Sure, finding ways to avoid gender-specific pronouns is preferable (e.g "The teacher"), but sometimes it isn't possible. At those times, when a writer uses "they" instead of "he" or "she", it drives me crazy.
Maybe this grammar nazis will have the ultimate showdown with the gender-neutral nazis.
Sure, finding ways to avoid gender-specific pronouns is preferable (e.g "The teacher"), but sometimes it isn't possible. At those times, when a writer uses "they" instead of "he" or "she", it drives me crazy.
Maybe this grammar nazis will have the ultimate showdown with the gender-neutral nazis.
i'm really angry someone made made that comment on your award.. their comment is bullshit. You earned it, without any doubt at all. Angela deserved her award. And Pamela, fuck yeah! she earned her award too.
The author needs to look up femnism in the dictionary. Feminism: noun - A doctrine that advocates equal rights for women.
That's not feminism at all to take your achievement and attempt to deminish it, becuase you're female and therefore must be a token..
Just utter crap!
The author needs to look up femnism in the dictionary. Feminism: noun - A doctrine that advocates equal rights for women.
That's not feminism at all to take your achievement and attempt to deminish it, becuase you're female and therefore must be a token..
Just utter crap!
Wow, seconding Brendas comment - I really can't believe that..
But surely disassociating yourself from feminism because of these actions is just helping the cause of those turning the word 'feminism' into something you don't believe in.?
But surely disassociating yourself from feminism because of these actions is just helping the cause of those turning the word 'feminism' into something you don't believe in.?
I don't know if that matters. All of this is just semantics really. Maybe feminism now is something I don't believe in. Movements change direction.
I don't know if I have enough energy to fight against sexism and fight against radical feminists at the same time :)
I don't know if I have enough energy to fight against sexism and fight against radical feminists at the same time :)
Unfortunately, you can't expect those on the other side of the wall to have a monopoly on over-reacting idiotic behaviour :) It's always going to exist on both sides.
I understand and agree with your frustration Penny, and I urge you (and I know you will) to continue both being a driver of and a great example of feminism through your work, hacking and successes. We unfortunately have a responsibility to maintain some sanity, or at least present some comparative sanity :)
I might suggest that you don't need to fight anyone on either side. Be who you are, a strong, geeky and awesome example for both women and geeks, and allow the radicals on both sides to employ their time with empty arguments whilst others can simply get on with it. You don't need to believe in feminism, you just need to be yourself for yourself which is the best form of feminism there is. Bugger the people that try to stop us, whatever rationale they present.
It isn't the labels that define us (unless we choose to let them), it's our actions and impact on the world. You are one of my role models and I'll look to you as an example well after idiotic labels are throw at you, at me, at women or geeks in general. So please continue kicking ass out there :)
I understand and agree with your frustration Penny, and I urge you (and I know you will) to continue both being a driver of and a great example of feminism through your work, hacking and successes. We unfortunately have a responsibility to maintain some sanity, or at least present some comparative sanity :)
I might suggest that you don't need to fight anyone on either side. Be who you are, a strong, geeky and awesome example for both women and geeks, and allow the radicals on both sides to employ their time with empty arguments whilst others can simply get on with it. You don't need to believe in feminism, you just need to be yourself for yourself which is the best form of feminism there is. Bugger the people that try to stop us, whatever rationale they present.
It isn't the labels that define us (unless we choose to let them), it's our actions and impact on the world. You are one of my role models and I'll look to you as an example well after idiotic labels are throw at you, at me, at women or geeks in general. So please continue kicking ass out there :)
Pia, you always write such sensible things! You are right about labels. I don't want to change my approach, ust the label I put on it. And I firmly believe that setting strong positive role models is a much more effective way to combat the low numbers of women in Open Source than focusing on the negative aspects all the time. As I've previously blogged, your Heroes talk is an excellent example of such a thing.
It's funny that you say that you're one of my role models, I remember being so in awe of you the first time we met in Sydney (at a Moodle conference, I believe), I think you were the first prominent female Open Source person I met and it gave me so much confidence! Actually I went to see your talk and remember thinking, "wow, maybe this is something I can do too!" - I was terrified of talking at conferences back then and so the fact that you got up and gave a great talk and held the attention of a room full of (mostly male) geeks was enormously inspiring for me.
That is absolutely the kind of feminism that gave me the strength to be where I am today, and I can only hope to provide that for the next generation of geeky girls.
It's funny that you say that you're one of my role models, I remember being so in awe of you the first time we met in Sydney (at a Moodle conference, I believe), I think you were the first prominent female Open Source person I met and it gave me so much confidence! Actually I went to see your talk and remember thinking, "wow, maybe this is something I can do too!" - I was terrified of talking at conferences back then and so the fact that you got up and gave a great talk and held the attention of a room full of (mostly male) geeks was enormously inspiring for me.
That is absolutely the kind of feminism that gave me the strength to be where I am today, and I can only hope to provide that for the next generation of geeky girls.
I understand your feelings on the open source & women issue. But while women's right to genuine equality (in human rights, pay, access to education & liberty) in so much of the world remains to be achieved how can you not be a feminist? Sure the Shuttleworth thing is a storm in a teacup. But there remain bigger issues at stake. One piece of advice that an older feminist once gave me has stood me in good stead: "beware of the hoods in the sisterhood".
BTW cool re your award!
BTW cool re your award!
I think what I'm really doing is distancing myself from a label that I don't want to be a part of anymore. Maybe I'll do that in more obvious ways like unsubscribing from various mailing lists and blogs, I'm not sure. At the moment I just feel like my own particular view on how to change the world isn't represented by the word "feminism" anymore.
It's okay to feel burnt out and to take a break, or even change the focus of your work entirely. This has been a hard year for open source feminists. As Kirrily wrote to Mark, there have been a lot of incidents this year, far more, certainly than I've ever even heard of from previous years!
The sheer number of incidents take their own toll however. Stupid remarks, which might have been shrugged off as inane or unwise in other years are instead building upon all the other stupid remarks and talks into this great big mountain of an issue. Mark's talk isn't necessarily the last straw, but it is certainly another straw.
The fact that there have been so many incidents also means that people are way more sensitive to the issue of sexism and exclusivity in FOSS than they were this time last year. This means that they're talking more about it, and of course talking a lot more whenever each new incident occurs. I hope this eventually has a good outcome although it may make those who mis-speak now, no matter how mildly, feel unduly lynched as they get hit with carry-on reaction from all the previous (though possibly worse) ones.
We're not all calling for a boycott of Ubuntu, but I must say I don't understand why it would be so hard for Mark to say:
"I realise that some phrases I used in my keynote made a number of the members in the audience feel marginalised or otherwise upset, for this I am sorry. Ubuntu welcomes everyone into the project without distinction, and so do I. I apologise to all who were upset by these phrases and I promise to endeavour not to make the same mistake again."
How could that make him look bad?
The sheer number of incidents take their own toll however. Stupid remarks, which might have been shrugged off as inane or unwise in other years are instead building upon all the other stupid remarks and talks into this great big mountain of an issue. Mark's talk isn't necessarily the last straw, but it is certainly another straw.
The fact that there have been so many incidents also means that people are way more sensitive to the issue of sexism and exclusivity in FOSS than they were this time last year. This means that they're talking more about it, and of course talking a lot more whenever each new incident occurs. I hope this eventually has a good outcome although it may make those who mis-speak now, no matter how mildly, feel unduly lynched as they get hit with carry-on reaction from all the previous (though possibly worse) ones.
We're not all calling for a boycott of Ubuntu, but I must say I don't understand why it would be so hard for Mark to say:
"I realise that some phrases I used in my keynote made a number of the members in the audience feel marginalised or otherwise upset, for this I am sorry. Ubuntu welcomes everyone into the project without distinction, and so do I. I apologise to all who were upset by these phrases and I promise to endeavour not to make the same mistake again."
How could that make him look bad?
I totally agree with you Mark should apologise, and I can't really understand how people think it would make him look bad. However, being publicly shamed like this probably puts him on the defensive and it's really hard to come back from that and apologise. Maybe if it had just been Kirrily's polite well worded letter, rather than the shitstorm it seems to have escalated into, he would have reacted differently, I don't know.
I also agree with your point about sensitivity. People get tired of making the same point over and over again and that leads towards eventual overreaction. I know I've been guilty of this myself. It's impossible to separate emotion from our reactions to thinks, especially when they hit home like this. But for some reason, I just find that I'm overreacting more to all the "switching away from ubuntu!" type comments, than I ever had to any of the original idiotic statements, with the possible exception of the Hans Reiser placard wielding idiots making rape and murder jokes at LCA in 2007.
I don't really know where my mental tolerance threshold is anymore, or why I seem to be able to shrug many of these things off, apparently more than most people. Maybe that makes me priviledged as well. I've been through the hard slog of proving myself in this industry and now I'm totally capable of sticking up for myself where I need to.
5 years ago I would have been much more affected by someone criticising my abilities than making a stupid comment about girls not understanding it. That leads me to think that for me personally, my own demons were internal insecurity about my own ability, rather than anyone ever telling me that girls couldn't do it. I guess I was always a rebel and never listened to what other people said. It certainly got me into trouble at school!
I also agree with your point about sensitivity. People get tired of making the same point over and over again and that leads towards eventual overreaction. I know I've been guilty of this myself. It's impossible to separate emotion from our reactions to thinks, especially when they hit home like this. But for some reason, I just find that I'm overreacting more to all the "switching away from ubuntu!" type comments, than I ever had to any of the original idiotic statements, with the possible exception of the Hans Reiser placard wielding idiots making rape and murder jokes at LCA in 2007.
I don't really know where my mental tolerance threshold is anymore, or why I seem to be able to shrug many of these things off, apparently more than most people. Maybe that makes me priviledged as well. I've been through the hard slog of proving myself in this industry and now I'm totally capable of sticking up for myself where I need to.
5 years ago I would have been much more affected by someone criticising my abilities than making a stupid comment about girls not understanding it. That leads me to think that for me personally, my own demons were internal insecurity about my own ability, rather than anyone ever telling me that girls couldn't do it. I guess I was always a rebel and never listened to what other people said. It certainly got me into trouble at school!
Think "male nurse" rather than just "nurse", or "female firemen" instead of firemen. There aren't many women mechanics, or female F1 racers or male kindergarten teachers or male secretaries etc.. etc..
Like it or not, computer geek is in the same category, and the vast majority are male.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't be pissed off about the tokenism comment though (congrats on the award btw), I can't imagine anyone not being angry about it.
Like it or not, computer geek is in the same category, and the vast majority are male.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't be pissed off about the tokenism comment though (congrats on the award btw), I can't imagine anyone not being angry about it.
"They" when referring to a singular subject‽‽‽‽
Whilst the English language is broad enough to facilitate some great poetry not having masculine and feminine words (besides job titles aviator/aviatrix, actor/actress) is a godsend. However languages such as French which have a plural you ('vous') and and singular you ('tu') is something severely lacking.
Whilst the English language is broad enough to facilitate some great poetry not having masculine and feminine words (besides job titles aviator/aviatrix, actor/actress) is a godsend. However languages such as French which have a plural you ('vous') and and singular you ('tu') is something severely lacking.
